Keeping history, roots and heritage in design
An interview with Leonardo Sonnoli by The 5th Color
April 22, 2005
Special thanks to Saeed Abbasi and Elham Mahoutchi

 

What do you think about the 5th Color and the atmosphere of Iranian graphic design?

I think that The 5th Color is very important for all the movements of Iranian graphic design. It is really surprising that there is not an association but a private group which is so generous with all the graphic designers in Iran.

It is very important that you promote Iranian graphic design abroad and, at the same time, you show high level of graphic design in Iran coming from all over the world: a fundamental thing to compare is having relation between the two.

In this case the 5th Color reminds me of the beginning of the AGI (Alliance Graphique Internationale) which started in a similar way, becoming the most important association.

Iranian graphic design surprised me few years ago; to be honest the first poster that I saw and really surprised me was the poster of Majid Abbasi. The portrait of “Sadeq Hedayat” with the flowers but after that I knew you and I discovered your excellent works and, more unexpectedly, I discovered that behind you there is another generation, that you help to develop as teachers and also as friends. These designers in their 20s, do very amazing works.

What I am very happy to see that mostly the Iranian designers know their tradition very well and they want to develop it. Looking at abroad but without being “colonized” by the western graphic design.

What about the sense of Iranian graphic design? How do you compare the differences between the atmosphere of Iranian graphic design and in other countries for instance western countries?

In western countries there are many different teaching methods and styles. I don’t like to speak about the differences of styles between Iran and the other countries, but the approach to design, that is probably very similar: you use a lot of typography and calligraphy in your works: You visualize words, stay loyal to your historical heritage and you continue doing it, but not in a traditional way, knowing very well how to develop the tradition. You are working in a very contemporary way and you are looking at your tradition and your roots which is always in a different way. For example Saed Meshki and Majid Abbasi’s works are very different, done with different feelings, but with the same approach: to communicate visually through the writing and the words.

I think your culture is very important: first the calligraphy and the writing system to express the good aesthetic through “painted” words; second, the famous poems in Persian literature to express the feelings through the words. And in this antique stream you do a new use of words to communicate in a new visual way.

And I would like to ask you about your style. At the first sight we can notice some kind of minimalism in your works and maybe very subtractive. Please tell us about your style, your point of view and the atmosphere in your works?

As before, I would like to speak about the approach instead of my style. Of course I design through my culture with my taste, therefore probably my works are often similar, made with a “style”. But I am not looking for a style.

About minimal approach, it comes from my culture that is deeply rooted in 20th century avant-garde arts in Europe, when there was an experimental approach to typography, using less elements as possible, fighting against the decoration of the past. It was an approach in common with many other disciplines like the architecture. Ludwig Mies van der Rohe used to say “Less is more”.

In fact, I usually try to remove the elements from my design instead of putting many things (images and types) to communicate.

Especially in poster design I think we need to put less elements as possible to communicate very fast and straightly.

I think that the work on typography is not a question of style, but need to be always appropriate” to the topic to communicate.

I am not an artist, I am a graphic designer and I always try to understand which is the topic of the communication, which is the theme to communicate and then I work on the visual elements, types, shapes and colors to express the topic and to be appropriate with the theme.

Thank you very much for your compliments to our culture but we would like to have your critical opinions about graphic design in Iran as well as our works?

It is really difficult to criticize all the graphic design in Iran. Of course during these days I saw many interesting things, so many things that I like and many other things that I was not interested at all.

What I criticize also during these days speaking with the graphic designers in Iran was the use of typography in Farsi and Latin alphabet. There are two aspects that I am interested to discuss.

What is easy to me, of course, is to judge the use of Latin alphabet. That is not often appropriate for me to the theme. It is not very good in choice of the types. I understand really well that having a different culture you don’t notice what I notice in a typeface. You don’t know probably the history of type design in western countries as I know.

What do you suggest about works with Latin alphabet? Is it OK to do it in a very simple way for example choosing a very simple typeface?

First of all don’t choose a typeface which is similar to the shape of Farsi alphabet. It is not true that because they have similar signs (aspects) they stay well together.

The other thing that I would like to discuss (but I think the problem has no answer) is the way you use a calligraphic system with a computer. It is really strange to me. If I have to do something calligraphic or in handwriting, that should have an aspect of being made by hand, I do it by hand I don’t use typeface in the computer that looks hand made. And this is very strange to me that you use this kind of type. I didn’t see any evolution in your writing system in this way. Or if I saw some Farsi typeface a little different, it was more developed from the handwriting system, you said it was not a good type: I see something different than you see. It is difficult to explain what I like in Farsi which you don’t. But the main problem is not the aesthetic choice. The problem is why you continue to use a writing system that seems hand made with tool which is exactly to do the contrary, doing always the same equal things.

I think there are many reasons, one is that The calligraphy is a profession and none of us can do that. Sometimes we use some calligraphic pen like “Nastaliq” based on soft wares and we like your opinion about using the typefaces in Iranian graphic design?

It depends on the culture because almost our typefaces are based on calligraphy but there are some differences behind that font or handwriting.

What I mean is that also Latin alphabet comes from handwriting but through the centuries it has been changed. In many Latin typefaces the proportions remained the same as the origin (of the Roman period). The line changed the thickness and the aspects of types got different. Typography is the word that comes from Greek which means writing with type. Type means a thing remaining always similar. I don’t criticize the work that you do on letters for example in a title of a poster, but the type you use to compose a book is for example the typeface that you usually use to compose everything. I am not criticizing your composition or your work. I try to understand why we Italians, with Latin alphabet and you Iranians, with Farsi alphabet had different developments in our writing system.

We are asking you about a kind of Iranian typography that uses the distraction of types and moves the alphabets up and down. What is your opinion?

I discussed similar things with young designers that I met. I discuss the use of type to understand which is a nice type and which is very a bad type with you. Because I just see signs, lines, proportions and I don’t understand- I have no feeling to understand the difference between what I see. Anyway I saw some interesting works of young designers (in Isfahan for example) using Farsi alphabet very spaced. A sign and space with another sign and space, breaking the words that were very strange and really interesting to me. This is very similar to me in using type and space to emphasize on the time in reading and to introduce a new dimension in a typographic composition.

You know it is not normal because in Farsi always there is a link between letters and it is not readable.

What I mean is that I noticed in some works (also of the 5th Color) there is an attempt to work in a different way on calligraphy. You are not a calligrapher but probably sort of a generation of digital calligraphers so you take the type and work on it.

So you prefer to call it calligraphy more than typography, right?

In this sense yes, sure. Your work might be similar to what I do. I am not a type designer I am working on type in a digital way with the computer and what you do is mixing different techniques by hand, photocopy, then Photoshop and other things.

But I like to see your work on title of a poster because you say you are not a calligrapher but in a way you are. Because you are working with different tools which is a traditional type.

You know in western eye it is a calligraphy because of the definition of calligraphy and typography. We call our works typography. But in western eye it is not typography may be because there is no exact type. It is closer to calligraphy. It is a good thing to discuss and have interview about but now we would like to ask you some other questions. Please tell us about the use of graphic design like posters in the society. For example in Italy when you do a poster it is so important that you use it in the streets but here I think there is another kind of designing posters because there are not good spaces for the posters and maybe it is very important in graphic design.

Also in Italy or in other countries someone says that the posters are communication tools that don’t work very well. I don’t think so. It is like people that many years ago said that the books were finished. It depends on how you use it. Many posters I have designed had been hanged indoor only like the universities. This is not a problem of poster design but how the municipality decides to hang the poster. Because 100x70 centimeter posters work very well in a place you walk and not in a place you are driving a car. They are too small. But on the other side the example of the famous Italian brand “Benetton” that became internationally well-known. Mainly through advertising with posters, not through commercials on TV. They used a lot of large posters not really posters (billboards) located in highways. As you can understand the problem is the size, the readability, not the tool.

The poster is just one of the means of media you can use. It is up to you how to use it and if you use it in an appropriate way.

But I saw many places to hang posters in Tehran and Isfahan. Because people walk and the traffic jam is usual, people go slowly in the town. And it is a very good choice to hang posters in the city. I don’t know why you don’t do it. I just saw very bad posters I think you explained them as bad advertising. But I don’t understand why you don’t use these places to hang posters.

I think it’s just for advertising and you must pay a lot to hang a poster everywhere with cultural subjects. It’s not normal to do the same things.

You could start to use it. I know it’s very expensive to use these places but this is not the problem if the poster communicates or not. The problem is that it’s too expensive to use. It could be a nice tool to communicate. Because I think it’s a very simple and old media, and it works if it is used well.

As a graphic designer from a western country how do you think designers can keep their personality while using their history, roots and heritage of design in their works?

I think the most important thing for a designer is the culture. The more you know, the freer you are to design and to choose your way.

First of all look at the close roots in your town and your country. For example my home-town and my country, Italy, but also the European culture is very important to me.

I say to my students they have to study a lot. Of course it is not enough to study, you have to be talented which is a gift that someone receives but another one not.

But I think that having a large and deep culture helps to judge if the way of the other people is right or not and also helps to choose one’s way.

Someone is more interested in roots, someone is interested in most recent things. But I think you have to know the development of your own tradition to continue it and to evolve it. With your influences of course because I think probably you are influenced by western design but also you don’t know or you don’t want it. In many cases I think you are right because western graphic design is probably the most developed one in the world together with Japanese. You have in some way to look at what have been done in different ways. Then to take your way and keep your tradition, do not copy. The approach is important not the style.

In the history of your country for example Roman alphabet with serif is so important. Is it true? If it’s true why don’t you use sans-serif alphabets in your work?

This is what people think that old type (the first type) was Serif but it is not true. Latin alphabet comes from Greek alphabet, let’s say the direct consequence of Greek alphabet. The first sample of Greek alphabet and the most beautiful example is without serif-very straight lines. Then also in the development of the Latin alphabets there are many old examples of typefaces without serif.

One of the best historians of the Latin alphabet is James Mosley, the former director of the St. Bride Printing Library in London. He explained very well -in a book called “The Nymph and the Grot”- that the Sans-serif typeface is not something belonged to the 20th century but something very old. Nowadays, nobody could say for sure why someone put the serif on types which is the main reason that Serif exists on type face. Could it be only some decoration, some styles to do with letters. Some might say that Serif typefaces are more readable than Sans-serif ones, but we know that in the road sign system or in many famous underground train systems, we mainly use Sans-serif typefaces because they are more readable. So in my search in using less elements than possible and to be simple and very straight, I start to use Sans-serif. It is not a dogma. It is not something that I imposed to my students or collaborators. At the beginning it was a search to find a very straight way to communicate but now it is a sort of feeling. I am no more able to use Serif typeface. Something strange I can’t explain. I feel better when I use Sans-serif!

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